Parties (we don't have parties like that in Australia do we?)
category: general [glöplog]
I'm 30 years old and can remember the C64 and Amiga demos fondly. Mostly they would come in the form of intros on cracked games although occasionally I would come across a disk full of nothing but demos. I used to write intros for an Australian bunch called “TFS” in exchange for free software. I always used to wonder about these “geek” (no offence intended, I myself would be considered a geek by many!) parties. Perhaps the scene is too small in Australia or I just never knew of any.
It's kinda odd that the demoscene is mainly a northern european phenomena (apply spellchecker). But that might be because bigger continents like America has countries like USA which heavily bases it's traditions on commercial happenings.
Yep, the reason could be the consume society who knows.. Also, old "home computers" like c64, zx spectrum, amiga, atari st were widely sold mainly across Europe - and this is where demoscene started, imho.
at least one thing we're ahead of everybody else :)
Leave it to Rasmus to fully understand the United States...
I'm going to TRY to avoid just slagging off Rasmus here, because we all know he's clueless. (Makes good productions, however, I will give you that Rasmus.)
The issue in the states doesn't happen to be 'emphasis on commercial happenings.' That would mean we'd be hosting Assembly and The Party - both basically commercial by many accounts. (I haven't been to either, I don't know firsthand. You can take my comment about them as hearsay.)
The issue is partly the distance between sceners. With the exception of large cities (Chicago, for example) you probably have a distance between sceners of a 8 hour drive. Mom and dad aren't going to haul you over to your fellow scener's house 8 hours away, and there isn't really a good alternate transportation at low cost solution here (Greyhound bus is about it, and that's quite scary actually)... It's VERY rare when you have 2 folks in the same school interested in demos - except in larger cities. Back in the day, for me to find a gfx dude and a musician, I had to call long distance boards - which required large phone bills. (Others did the other way, I didn't.)
Part of this is also the societal emphasis on ostracising those who are intelligent. (Although, as I've grown older, I've discovered this is mainly an issue with one's own self esteem - if you get past what you think others are forcing on you, you don't have the ostracism issue.) Those who are intelligent tend to be lumped (or lump themselves) together with others who are similarly inclined - and thus away from those with a creative bent. So, the few folks who do have an interest in both are few and far between. (See above distance comment.)
Our scenes have been based on mediums that allowed us to traverse distances quickly and without actual face to face contact. Thus, the BBS scene - this allowed you to communicate with sceners despite the fact that you lived in Akron Ohio, and they lived in Portland Oregon (a 6 day drive, if you drive 18 hours each day.)
Our 'groups' tended to be without leaders as well - making it harder to handle projects. Projects require leadership, and, at least in my experience, we didn't have any (: It was a true anarchy, and, well, some folks like that.
Of course today we have the internet which allows us to communicate more fully with others over long distances with much LESS cost.
I guess it comes down to this - I've been involved in the demoscene since '87 and I've _NEVER_ been to a party. Yes, I'd like to go to one, but in no way is it a required part of being part of the scene. This is NOT something that I hear European sceners claiming - oddly enough, many European sceners seem to REQUIRE the party competitions - they can't make demos outside of parties because there is no 'point'...
(Which is odd, considering how often we're CONDEMNED for being overcompetitive. But hey, with such total misunderstnandings of each other's cultures - that's going to happen.)
Anyway, from my experience: European sceners demand the party experience, non-Eropean sceners exist without it, and if cost allows, they may participate in a European party.
(Finally, I would just like to say that the Coma3 releases were FAR better than the Party 2001 releases, putting our parties clearly on top in terms of scene experience. Nyaaah Nyaaah (: )
I'm going to TRY to avoid just slagging off Rasmus here, because we all know he's clueless. (Makes good productions, however, I will give you that Rasmus.)
The issue in the states doesn't happen to be 'emphasis on commercial happenings.' That would mean we'd be hosting Assembly and The Party - both basically commercial by many accounts. (I haven't been to either, I don't know firsthand. You can take my comment about them as hearsay.)
The issue is partly the distance between sceners. With the exception of large cities (Chicago, for example) you probably have a distance between sceners of a 8 hour drive. Mom and dad aren't going to haul you over to your fellow scener's house 8 hours away, and there isn't really a good alternate transportation at low cost solution here (Greyhound bus is about it, and that's quite scary actually)... It's VERY rare when you have 2 folks in the same school interested in demos - except in larger cities. Back in the day, for me to find a gfx dude and a musician, I had to call long distance boards - which required large phone bills. (Others did the other way, I didn't.)
Part of this is also the societal emphasis on ostracising those who are intelligent. (Although, as I've grown older, I've discovered this is mainly an issue with one's own self esteem - if you get past what you think others are forcing on you, you don't have the ostracism issue.) Those who are intelligent tend to be lumped (or lump themselves) together with others who are similarly inclined - and thus away from those with a creative bent. So, the few folks who do have an interest in both are few and far between. (See above distance comment.)
Our scenes have been based on mediums that allowed us to traverse distances quickly and without actual face to face contact. Thus, the BBS scene - this allowed you to communicate with sceners despite the fact that you lived in Akron Ohio, and they lived in Portland Oregon (a 6 day drive, if you drive 18 hours each day.)
Our 'groups' tended to be without leaders as well - making it harder to handle projects. Projects require leadership, and, at least in my experience, we didn't have any (: It was a true anarchy, and, well, some folks like that.
Of course today we have the internet which allows us to communicate more fully with others over long distances with much LESS cost.
I guess it comes down to this - I've been involved in the demoscene since '87 and I've _NEVER_ been to a party. Yes, I'd like to go to one, but in no way is it a required part of being part of the scene. This is NOT something that I hear European sceners claiming - oddly enough, many European sceners seem to REQUIRE the party competitions - they can't make demos outside of parties because there is no 'point'...
(Which is odd, considering how often we're CONDEMNED for being overcompetitive. But hey, with such total misunderstnandings of each other's cultures - that's going to happen.)
Anyway, from my experience: European sceners demand the party experience, non-Eropean sceners exist without it, and if cost allows, they may participate in a European party.
(Finally, I would just like to say that the Coma3 releases were FAR better than the Party 2001 releases, putting our parties clearly on top in terms of scene experience. Nyaaah Nyaaah (: )
I bet you live in a city with other people, heck you might even know some of them. If they are just slightly interested in coding, pixeling, 3d modelling composing - then you're on the right path to start a demo group. But from what i have seen/heard people in the states are more into making games than making demos. I bet this has something todo with that they can see money at the end of the tunnel (whereas demomaking is for the fun/glory/chicks/whatever).
"Finally, I would just like to say that the Coma3 releases were FAR better than the Party 2001 releases"
Isn't anybody remotely distressed by the fact that this is partially *TRUE*? The North American continent has never been a nesting grounds for a lot of quality releases, but that special "wow, this bites" feeling tp01 releases gave me was creepy.
Isn't anybody remotely distressed by the fact that this is partially *TRUE*? The North American continent has never been a nesting grounds for a lot of quality releases, but that special "wow, this bites" feeling tp01 releases gave me was creepy.
Maccaw: actually, you're right about the 'people in your town' bit. When I lived in Chicago, I lived a half mile away from Pyromaniac/Beyond, and we didn't realize it until a week before I moved. Or was it 6 months, hmm.
But I did make an exception for Chicago. (: /me lames out a weak excuse (:
As for the games/money thing, you're confusing the USA with England. I do have friends in the gaming industry in this country, but by and large, the country with the largest number of gaming shops is England. (Most everyone I know in England remotely interested in the scene is employed in the games industry. And that's about 8-10 times the number of people I know in the scene in the states.)
However, there is a different creative environment that I see between Europe and the states... you seem to encourage it more than we do.
But you're right overall about just getting started and going for it. We started that when I lived in Akron and, had we ORGANIZED, we could have done something.
Shifter: I'm distressed, yes. I'm hoping my comment causes some folks to try to prove me wrong at Mekka...
But I did make an exception for Chicago. (: /me lames out a weak excuse (:
As for the games/money thing, you're confusing the USA with England. I do have friends in the gaming industry in this country, but by and large, the country with the largest number of gaming shops is England. (Most everyone I know in England remotely interested in the scene is employed in the games industry. And that's about 8-10 times the number of people I know in the scene in the states.)
However, there is a different creative environment that I see between Europe and the states... you seem to encourage it more than we do.
But you're right overall about just getting started and going for it. We started that when I lived in Akron and, had we ORGANIZED, we could have done something.
Shifter: I'm distressed, yes. I'm hoping my comment causes some folks to try to prove me wrong at Mekka...
About the England/USA thingie, England did have a pulsating demo-scene some years ago.
About you first finding out about pyromanic/beyond - I have heard of people seeking other sceners in their area at schools, universities, newspapers and bulletin boards; As I assume you have all these facilities in USA, why not use them?
About you first finding out about pyromanic/beyond - I have heard of people seeking other sceners in their area at schools, universities, newspapers and bulletin boards; As I assume you have all these facilities in USA, why not use them?
IMHO, the lack of a large scene in the US also dates back to the way the BBS's were organized. I'm not sure how boards were in Europe, but over here, many of the people who were seriously interested in computers found their way into the hack/phreak scene instead of demos. If someone was a competent coder, it is likely that they would be found writing viruses, coding misc. unix programs, or cracking (yes, the US was VERY active in cracking at one point).
There was always an art scene, and a music scene, but the art and music groups generally put out their releases independently of any one else, relying on warez couriers to distribute them around the country. There was also a very active lit and textfile scene over here that I think never really achieved much prominence in Europe.
Also, Amiga and Atari computers _were_ far more popular in Europe than in the States. That in and of itself pretty much precluded many demo releases up until the point when the PC became a competent demo machine.
There was always an art scene, and a music scene, but the art and music groups generally put out their releases independently of any one else, relying on warez couriers to distribute them around the country. There was also a very active lit and textfile scene over here that I think never really achieved much prominence in Europe.
Also, Amiga and Atari computers _were_ far more popular in Europe than in the States. That in and of itself pretty much precluded many demo releases up until the point when the PC became a competent demo machine.
Well, since the topic was brought up, anyone know of a scener in the Columbus, Ohio region ( in the USA) ? :P
or Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada?
guys, advertise in newspapers or at your school/university or similar.
you know, you can't just wiat for other sceners to appear in your city. you have to find remotly interested people and show them the enlightened path.
otherwise you'll just be sitting on your buttocks doing irc all your life wiating for something to happen.
take the initiative.
a demoparty even if its only with 50 people can already sparkle alot of fire around, next year if you play your cards right you'll get double the people. you just need to keep finding the sceners who dont know they are sceners yet and show them what tools there are outthere for them to do anything you can use on a demo.
so many crackers and phreakers and none of them ever felt the drive to code realtime graphics? you have cracktros on US aswell.. gimme a break. you're all just lazy.
if you can't find people to work with you do it yourself. afterwards some one will come to you say he saw it and he could do better in some area and ofer the help. it's a proven fact.
otherwise you'll just be sitting on your buttocks doing irc all your life wiating for something to happen.
take the initiative.
a demoparty even if its only with 50 people can already sparkle alot of fire around, next year if you play your cards right you'll get double the people. you just need to keep finding the sceners who dont know they are sceners yet and show them what tools there are outthere for them to do anything you can use on a demo.
so many crackers and phreakers and none of them ever felt the drive to code realtime graphics? you have cracktros on US aswell.. gimme a break. you're all just lazy.
if you can't find people to work with you do it yourself. afterwards some one will come to you say he saw it and he could do better in some area and ofer the help. it's a proven fact.
Sir Garbagetruck: You can be 100% sure that we'll see many quality releases at Mekka 2002. Mekka is the last kicking *big* party! And the most small or midsize european parties had also better releases than the TP 2001 (except for medium and elements)
Werd to ps. If you're the only one around who's interested, yep, you'll have to take the lead. A few years ago at my university (in the US, btw) I ran three demo shows, in small rooms with a projector, which attracted between 20-40 people each. To get them there the first time, run it in conjunction with another, similar event (like an art/film show), and post flyers with cool-looking screen shots. If ppl show up, you can hand out sheets at the show which describe the demos a bit, and point people to a website (which you should probably do yourself) which briefly explains the scene and links to the well-known sites. It's not that Americans, among others, aren't interested in demo/music/gfx-type activity, it's that they don't understand what it's about. Don't be shy, convert them. :)
Crest: that was maybe abit cynical to kill all other great sceneevents. In Denmark we have 2 _great_ scene-events - SE2K and TRSAC. Both feature some of the best scenespirit I have ever experienced at demoparties!
I attended MS2K1 and will attend again this year (MS rules).
I attended MS2K1 and will attend again this year (MS rules).
phoenix: Demoshows are not only attracting people which are new to the scene but also oldskoolers. The best examples are my demoshows that I'm running on the most german parties since summer 1999 (biggest audience was Mekka 2001). And for quite many people it's the only chance to see some nice dos or gus only demos after a quite long time.
macaw: I don't know TRSAC that much, but I fully agree with Scene Event aka Summer Encounter. It was always a nice party with very good releases. But imo SE and TRSAC are midsize parties and not big ones with more than 1000 attenders. Correct me when I'm wrong!
Crest: I'm aware of that, I saw you and your show at Mekka 2001. :) There were a few other sceners at my school too when I ran those demo shows (some of them dropped out or lost interest before they graduated, unfortunately).
I seriously doubt that the distance issue was/is the big problem with the US scene, but rather the frequency of sceners. When I got into the scene in 1988 I met 2 other sceners at my school, which had about 500 or so pupils.
Had the US had the same frequency of sceneres, all major cities would have had HUGE numbers of sceners.
Nowadays I think it is a whole different story though, even here in Sweden I don't think that there are even a tenth the number of new sceners starting out compared to the late 80ies/early 90ies.
Had the US had the same frequency of sceneres, all major cities would have had HUGE numbers of sceners.
Nowadays I think it is a whole different story though, even here in Sweden I don't think that there are even a tenth the number of new sceners starting out compared to the late 80ies/early 90ies.
Well, I was living first 18 years of my life in a small town with zero demoscene people... In the area there was only one known group called Exotic Men (this should ring a bell to some of you...) and the true highlight was when JMagic/Complex came to study there for half a year before he got himself into a real university. :)
Anyways what I'm after is that even if you live in Finland or some other more known scene country it doesn't mean there are sceners existing under every possible rock.. In big cities for sure, but living 6 hours away from Helsinki or Jyväskylä doesn't make young demoscener life easy at all.
Back then we had BBS's and even some tools for nice global communication like GSN (Gathering the Scene Network, spreading widely around international BBS's). Nowadays things are even easier: There's loads of demoscene forums and contacting sceners from other side of the globe is no problem at all. Contributing into a demo you're making with people you don't see often or perhaps never in real life is and has been always possible.
And about demoparties. I think parties have been arranged on every continent besides south pole. Perhaps not as frequently as in Europe, but I remember seeing some Singapore and Argentina demoparties in the past. And at least there is Coma in North America and Coven in Australia. And if there is really no party near to you, go and arrange it yourself - it doesn't have to be massive gathering, you can have fun already with couple dozen people and small compos. That's also what we did at some point when we couldn't afford traveling to all nice parties around Europe or even in Finland.
But that's enough talk. Now some Karhu. Ugh.
Anyways what I'm after is that even if you live in Finland or some other more known scene country it doesn't mean there are sceners existing under every possible rock.. In big cities for sure, but living 6 hours away from Helsinki or Jyväskylä doesn't make young demoscener life easy at all.
Back then we had BBS's and even some tools for nice global communication like GSN (Gathering the Scene Network, spreading widely around international BBS's). Nowadays things are even easier: There's loads of demoscene forums and contacting sceners from other side of the globe is no problem at all. Contributing into a demo you're making with people you don't see often or perhaps never in real life is and has been always possible.
And about demoparties. I think parties have been arranged on every continent besides south pole. Perhaps not as frequently as in Europe, but I remember seeing some Singapore and Argentina demoparties in the past. And at least there is Coma in North America and Coven in Australia. And if there is really no party near to you, go and arrange it yourself - it doesn't have to be massive gathering, you can have fun already with couple dozen people and small compos. That's also what we did at some point when we couldn't afford traveling to all nice parties around Europe or even in Finland.
But that's enough talk. Now some Karhu. Ugh.
And if there are not enough people for a regular party with compos and stuff then just make a small review party where the people can watch and listen some nice demos (of course not only the new stuff but also the classic stuff).
I agree with Melwyn. Being one of the organizers of the said best party ever (Motorola Inside'97/'98) I can say: support the community! It may have lan-gaming etc. involved (unlike we did) but as long as you can gather some people together and show them what this all is about you have succeeded in the true mission: to spread the word
and the scene needs new blood.. badly. I've already called ambulance and waiting for the nice whitecoated men to arrive :(
and the scene needs new blood.. badly. I've already called ambulance and waiting for the nice whitecoated men to arrive :(
