AI is forcing the hand of the Demoscene.
category: general [glöplog]
8 years ago I was invited to introduce the demoscene at the modern art exhibition, listen what curators said: YouTube (turn subtitles on).
For me it was not a commercial activity, it was the way to share demoscene art and philosophy to the people who definitely can respect it. The same happens on Siggraph, I guess (I wasn't there, but I held a seminar on CG Event – the largest industry conference in Russia).
After covid-19 art galleries went online and entered NFT world as well. They have their own reasons, but for artists it's just another way to expose their art. Preacher was right, but I'm not telling about sales volume at all. I'm telling about galleries (offline and online) and visitors.
I have no idea why most demosceners avoid such activity. Looks like they just can't do it, so they search for explanation (the easiest way is to say "I don't need it" when you simply can't reach the goal).
Same thing with A.I. In 2010 Archee used neural networks in his 4k intro, but who else since then? We just lost 10 years, and now we blame other people who started to use neural networks in their art. It’s so wierd.
For me it was not a commercial activity, it was the way to share demoscene art and philosophy to the people who definitely can respect it. The same happens on Siggraph, I guess (I wasn't there, but I held a seminar on CG Event – the largest industry conference in Russia).
After covid-19 art galleries went online and entered NFT world as well. They have their own reasons, but for artists it's just another way to expose their art. Preacher was right, but I'm not telling about sales volume at all. I'm telling about galleries (offline and online) and visitors.
I have no idea why most demosceners avoid such activity. Looks like they just can't do it, so they search for explanation (the easiest way is to say "I don't need it" when you simply can't reach the goal).
Same thing with A.I. In 2010 Archee used neural networks in his 4k intro, but who else since then? We just lost 10 years, and now we blame other people who started to use neural networks in their art. It’s so wierd.
Quote:
now we blame other people who started to use neural networks in their art
And other people's art. Don't forget that detail.
Quote:
...and now we blame other people who started to use neural networks in their art.
I really have trouble seeing who is blaming who and where. Maybe I missed something tho.
Quote:
(the easiest way is to say "I don't need it" when you simply can't reach the goal)
You just seem unable to grasp the notion of someone being able to do something, and at the same time just not wanting to do it in a way or at a place that he/she seems uncomfortable with. Or simply not caring for that matter. (well not caring about what exactly? money? artworld fame? stardom? recognition out of context?)
OK, so you don't care about the money. You just want to see demoscene artefacts in an art gallery. Why? Do they become more worthy if placed in a gallery? Does making it suddenly become more fun if they end up in a gallery? Do gallery visitors really understand the context? Do they understand the filesize? Do they understand the difference between oldschool platforms, DOS realtime demos, GLSL made modern 4k or WinAmp visualisations as opposed to non-realtime 8k pre-rendered HDRI videos made with Houdini and a render farm? Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing art galleries and their visitors, I mean why would they be aware of the demoscene context anyway?
In my opinion, "art" out of context is not "art" but mere decor. So what you'd be placing in an "art" gallery would stop being "art" the moment you introduced it there. But that's just me...
I just saying people want to see demoscene artefacts in galleries. I heard it many times.
In reality, gallery visitors understand file size and context, if you find a way to present it properly. I printed 4096 bytes dump and placed the poster next to the screen, so gallery visitors could read a short description and understand everything. In addition, the guides explained everything to the visitors. In fact, they are aware of the demoscene context.
Looks like some demosceners afraid of being misunderstood or underestimated, that's why they can't make a step forward.
In reality, gallery visitors understand file size and context, if you find a way to present it properly. I printed 4096 bytes dump and placed the poster next to the screen, so gallery visitors could read a short description and understand everything. In addition, the guides explained everything to the visitors. In fact, they are aware of the demoscene context.
Looks like some demosceners afraid of being misunderstood or underestimated, that's why they can't make a step forward.
"guides" in an art gallery? you're so wonderfully naive
Quote:
Looks like some demosceners afraid of being misunderstood or underestimated, that's why they can't make a step forward.
Could be. I fail to see that as the real reason tho. I think that the idea that that's the MAIN or the ONLY reason is crazy. Like saying for example Fugazi don't want to perform at Eurovision song contest because they are afraid of being misunderstood or underestimated. You seem to be of opinion that the innermost ultimate wet dream of the demoscene folk is to be displayed at an "art" gallery, but they are just too insecure. I don't think that's the case at all.
My work has been displayed in many different places from an Apple store to Siggraph to a film festival to an actual art gallery. I tick all the boxes here and I still don't understand why I should care about it.
Quote:
"guides" in an art gallery? you're so wonderfully naive
havoc, just watch the video I mentioned recently: curators worked as guides on the exhibition. I told with curators, owners and guides in 7 art galleries I visited recently. They all are involved and have deep understanding of the art, collected in their galleries. What kind of problems you have with guides?
4gentEI don't say demosceners are dreaming to be exhibited in galleries. I say people want to see demoscene art in galleries.
Quote:
My work has been displayed in many different places from an Apple store to Siggraph to a film festival to an actual art gallery. I tick all the boxes here and I still don't understand why I should care about it.
Preacher, I'm glad for you. If you don't care about more exhibitions, you probably don't care about A.I. too. I respect the position of not being bothered by anything.
Two of my demos have been displayed in an art exhibition this very summer and somehow this feat was achieved completely without the blockchain
Quote:
And other people's art. Don't forget that detail.
Gargaj, demosceners also use other people's art, it's not a sin. It's common thing in human culture. A.I. generated art is also not a theft, I suppose. Artists hate A.I. for other reason.
I remember times when painters who started to use computer have been condemned. They received disrespect from traditional painters mostly. Now almost everyone use computer and tablet to draw, it's new understanding of "tradition", and public respect such artists.
The same for A.I. art: it receive disrespect from "traditional" artists today, but the future is coming...
Quote:
I say people want to see demoscene art in galleries.
Well, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. I still can't really understand why, but wtf do I know about the modern world... So basically you want to inform the demoscene that "art" galleries are hungry for its artefacts, and that demosceners should not be insecure about showing their "art" there, because insecurity is, in your opinion, the main reason why (at least part of the) scene rejects NFTs and AI. Errr, OK.
Quote:
Two of my demos have been displayed in an art exhibition this very summer and somehow this feat was achieved completely without the blockchain
jobe, I'm happy for you. I also exhibited my demos in galleries and museums without any blockchain. Blockchain is not necessary. But I see no reason to exclude it at all, since it's a popular media.
Quote:
Quote:I say people want to see demoscene art in galleries.
Well, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. I still can't really understand why, but wtf do I know about the modern world... So basically you want to inform the demoscene that "art" galleries are hungry for its artefacts, and that demosceners should not be insecure about showing their "art" there, because insecurity is, in your opinion, the main reason why (at least part of the) scene rejects NFTs and AI. Errr, OK.
Exactly what I'm saying, 4gentE. Not sure about reasons, though.
Man, you're just too fast for me. It was AI, then NFT, then NFT somehow vanished and became art galleries, then AI again...
However, do consider that maybe, just maybe, some people have some other reasons other their insecurity about their "art" to reject such beautiful ideas as NFTs or LLM AIs.
However, do consider that maybe, just maybe, some people have some other reasons other their insecurity about their "art" to reject such beautiful ideas as NFTs or LLM AIs.
Quote:
But I see no reason to exclude it at all
I do. Not all deals are good deals, and I read the fine print on this one.
Quote:
But I see no reason to exclude it at all
It doesn't work like that. It's massively computationally expensive at a time of an energy and a climate crisis, so you need to have a reason to include it. So, what's the reason? No one seems to be able to elucidate that
jobe, modern demos and video games are also resource-consuming, but we don't care about climate, making them. It's not fair.
4gentE, you may be right: the connection between AI and NFT exists in my head only. What I see in common between them, is Scene reaction. I'm trying to find a global reason of that.
4gentE, you may be right: the connection between AI and NFT exists in my head only. What I see in common between them, is Scene reaction. I'm trying to find a global reason of that.
Quote:
modern demos and video games are also resource-consuming
...but they are actual cultural artefacts, instead of mere dodgy "proofs" of "ownership" of a cultural artefact. I'm tempted to say that the worst video game is still infinitely more valuable than an NFT, but having seen what kind of sketchy crap people manage to get on Steam, the worst video game probably actually uses the player's GPU to mint those NFTs.
Quote:
the connection between AI and NFT exists in my head only. What I see in common between them, is Scene reaction. I'm trying to find a global reason of that.
Perhaps because they could both happen to be, gee I don’t know, horrible ideas? But, hell, I would’t know, I’m an old luddite fart who thought Facebook was a bad idea, and look how great that turned out.
maybe some people on this thread who assume the scene as a whole shares an opinion about AI need to google "vocal minority fallacy" some day
Quote:
modern demos and video games are also resource-consuming, but we don't care about climate, making them. It's not fair.
Not even remotely on the same scale. For one, games/demos don't consume any power when they're not being made or ran.
There are a bunch of demos that feature AI generated assets, and this very thread contains quite a few different points of view weighing in the pros and cons of AI as a whole. But sure, every scener is just Thag, and Thag fear fire.
Quote:
4gentE, you may be right: the connection between AI and NFT exists in my head only. What I see in common between them, is Scene reaction. I'm trying to find a global reason of that.
If the "connection" you see is that some people dislike these things, a lot of stuff can be said to be connected.
if you're looking for the reason behind this dislike, you could trawl through both this thread and the other thread we had on AI generated art - all the arguments are in there.
Truck said today at the compo studio that AI graphics compo was totally boring
