So, how dead is it?
category: general [glöplog]
Yes, there have been several demos for multiple platforms that were little more than animation players. They never seemed to manage to make much noise, unless they were showing us something we hadn't seen before.
Also, having limitations imposed on what you're doing can be a boon for creativity, but it's not a prerequisite for being able to make something good.
Also, having limitations imposed on what you're doing can be a boon for creativity, but it's not a prerequisite for being able to make something good.
@gargaj :
I read somewhere, I don't remember exactly where, I can try to find it, an interview in which Spaceballs said that "they used expensive broadcast equipment" for capture. Video capture was not common in 1992 as I recall. So I guess that would be equivalent of 100000$ software. Or at least the thing that could make other coders feeling butthurt.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not 'diminishing' anything here. I loved SOTA back then, and I love it now too for what it was. It's a milestone prod.
I read somewhere, I don't remember exactly where, I can try to find it, an interview in which Spaceballs said that "they used expensive broadcast equipment" for capture. Video capture was not common in 1992 as I recall. So I guess that would be equivalent of 100000$ software. Or at least the thing that could make other coders feeling butthurt.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not 'diminishing' anything here. I loved SOTA back then, and I love it now too for what it was. It's a milestone prod.
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Video capture was not common in 1992 as I recall.
Amiga famously did video capturing well and inexpensively. What was "new" with SotA was the rotoscoped vector objects and the general pacing/direction; nobody had done anything quite like it in a demoscene context before. It almost looked more like a music video than like a demo. Quite mind blowing to see something like that on your home computer back then, and probably actually helped sell a few Amigas.
I didn't think that "rotoscoped vector objects" came as an artistic choice, I thought "rotoscoped vector objects" were there because they were the closest Amiga could come to full motion video.
From coding perspective, the thing I can appreciate the most is the 'transcoder' of full motion video into vectors.
I suspect principal pacing/direction were done in a cutting room on a betacam, then repeated in the computer. So really the biggest novelty that made this prod so great is the concept, the mindset of producing it like you said "more like a music video". As opposed to codep0rn that was prevalent then.
From coding perspective, the thing I can appreciate the most is the 'transcoder' of full motion video into vectors.
I suspect principal pacing/direction were done in a cutting room on a betacam, then repeated in the computer. So really the biggest novelty that made this prod so great is the concept, the mindset of producing it like you said "more like a music video". As opposed to codep0rn that was prevalent then.
This is exhausting. I'm out.
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I read somewhere, I don't remember exactly where, I can try to find it, an interview in which Spaceballs said that "they used expensive broadcast equipment" for capture.
No great surprise that a thread about whether the demoscene is dead has now deteriorated into discussing how demos were made 31 years ago.
Anyway, while I have no doubts that Lone Starr may have claimed "expensive broadcast equipment" was involved, the animations in SOTA were done with manual rotoscoping using an Amiga genlock and a decent consumer-grade VHS player. :)
(9 fingers automated the conversion of video captures into vector data and that was some really nifty code for its time)
already looking forward to 2053 when we're about to discuss polystreamers!
Demo aesthetics have of course changed on static platforms over time; just compare Mentallic with Mathematica with Lifecycle on the C64, for example.
With that said, there are certain aesthetics you simply cannot achieve on certain platforms, and certain other aesthetics that are encouraged or determined by specific platform hardware. It's very easy to spot a C64 demo, fairly easy to spot an A500 demo, and so on.
Of course modern PC hardware has limits, but they are orders of magnitude above old home computers and allow for aesthetic choices simply not viable on E.G. an Amiga. This is hardly controversial.
For example, If I was shown the singing man scenes from The Legend of Sisyphus without context, I'd assume it was a music video or TV commercial of some sort. In E.G. SoTA, 9 Fingers and Eon, the restricted palettes, vector conversion, silhouettes, chiaroscuro and other choices are at least partly motivated by hardware limitations, whereas ASD could have opted for full 24-bit colour but didn't, purely out of choice.
In that sense, modern PC demos are much more driven by aesthetic preference than Amiga 500 demos. That doesn't necessarily mean they're easier to produce.
With that said, there are certain aesthetics you simply cannot achieve on certain platforms, and certain other aesthetics that are encouraged or determined by specific platform hardware. It's very easy to spot a C64 demo, fairly easy to spot an A500 demo, and so on.
Of course modern PC hardware has limits, but they are orders of magnitude above old home computers and allow for aesthetic choices simply not viable on E.G. an Amiga. This is hardly controversial.
For example, If I was shown the singing man scenes from The Legend of Sisyphus without context, I'd assume it was a music video or TV commercial of some sort. In E.G. SoTA, 9 Fingers and Eon, the restricted palettes, vector conversion, silhouettes, chiaroscuro and other choices are at least partly motivated by hardware limitations, whereas ASD could have opted for full 24-bit colour but didn't, purely out of choice.
In that sense, modern PC demos are much more driven by aesthetic preference than Amiga 500 demos. That doesn't necessarily mean they're easier to produce.
@grip :
That! That's all I wanted to say.
TBH SOTA demo (which I love BTW) was only mentioned bcz I (mistakenly I guess) thought @okkie was referring to it.
I think what defines demoscene aesthetic is one part cultural (artificial) and one part material (hardware). In case of old, severely limited computers the material (hardware) part was larger. In todays PC demoscene, as hardware progresses, the cultural (artificial) part is more and more predominant. There.
That's like the only thing I wanted to say in the first place.
It seems things get pretty crazy pretty fast here.
That! That's all I wanted to say.
TBH SOTA demo (which I love BTW) was only mentioned bcz I (mistakenly I guess) thought @okkie was referring to it.
I think what defines demoscene aesthetic is one part cultural (artificial) and one part material (hardware). In case of old, severely limited computers the material (hardware) part was larger. In todays PC demoscene, as hardware progresses, the cultural (artificial) part is more and more predominant. There.
That's like the only thing I wanted to say in the first place.
It seems things get pretty crazy pretty fast here.
> That! That's all I wanted to say.
Happy to be of service!
> It seems things get pretty crazy pretty fast here.
Welcome to pouët! :D
Happy to be of service!
> It seems things get pretty crazy pretty fast here.
Welcome to pouët! :D
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So, how dead is it?
As much as we want it to be. The less quality releases, overall contributions, etc. we make the more the 'scene is dead' factor goes up. So...
