The Gathering versus Mekka Symposium
category: general [glöplog]
One part of good news about all this is that ms is having a problem with becoming too large, even without having to try and get non-sceners to attend! .. and people keep saying the scene is dead :)
Weasel: Well, it's positive when so much people will come to Mekka because it offers the real spirit. It's just to bad that there is no bigger hall available (at least without raising the entrance fee to 70 Euro or more). I think it's already in this year possible that not all people (especially late arriving ones) can enter the hall, but I hope not. Another positive thing after the Nexus'95 disaster is that Germany is now hosting one of the most successful scene parties ;-)
Well, I agree that M/S has been/is the best scene-party, but TG can get better than it has been, if only the sceners want it!! Im going to join the PCDemo @ TG, and I think it will rock, even if we get placed last =D! I dont think that the SceneArea is going to suck, or whatever you guys say. It's cool that TG even made this place, they _are_ trying!!
C'ya at TG Kroz and Activator ;)
C'ya at TG Kroz and Activator ;)
Real scene parties don't need a 'scene area' because the party itself is for the sceners. And the sceners didn't left TG because they got bored visiting it but because the organizers were going a wrong way.
Crest: who said TG was a real scene party? You just comment on how good Mekka is. That just dont keep me from visiting TG. Im living closer to TG and I will try to support the scene here. Mekka is just too far away for me to visit. Im sure Mekka is the best party around. TG can surely be as good as Mekka if the sceners up here want to. The more sceners visiting TG this year the more fun we will have.
Activator: very true! That's the point I just try to explain here all the time...! ;-)
Crest: well, why are you kinda 'intolerant' concerning '(scene-)events' ...?
Well, I think it really doesn't matter if a party (no matter if it used to be 'pure' scene or not...also think about that: EVERY party used to be pure scene in the early days...as the SCENERS started organizing such events! So it ALL used to be SCENE some day back!!) has g(l)amers there these days or not!
Of course I'd also prefer to have no gamers around...no question about that!
But simply face the facts...gamers raised in a huge community since several years now...it's surely something completely different compared to 'the scene'...but why being totally ignorant and almost _hating_ them till death!?
I mean..as long as those guys aren't MIXED in one hall with sceners but having their own hall/place/area at the party I don't really care..as I don't have to go over to them...
As long as I'm not annoyed by them...like having to see _their_ 'ignorant' behaviour sometimes not interested in demos and scene-compos on the big screen...I don't care!
Let them play whatever they like...let them not look left nor right in three days but just having headphones on and staring on their CS screen!! Who cares? If they don't sit among US (=sceners!) let them pay and finance 'our' party...if they want to!
Of course the shouldn't be able to take over the event! But that's surely more a decision of the party-orgas than of the gamers themselves!
I just can repeat here what I already said before as well:
We are ALL just humans and surely do mistakes!
Maybe TG orga made certain mistakes in the last years by giving the gamers 'more' attention than the sceners there!
BUT, as digitalerrOr said up here, they are TRYING to change that again...so why not giving them a chance again then?
A good scene-party always consists of TWO parts: the orga AND the sceners going there/supporting it!
The only 'problem' I'd see for the moment would be that MS and TG are placed at the same date..and that makes it a bit harder to decide for many sceners for sure!
But it's also clear that TG surely was the 'first' at this date and no one could have known that MS would develope to such a big scene-event over the years!
Well, good party-dates are rare if you take the whole year in consideration...so it's hard to 'not' collide with any other event on a certain date if you are looking for the 'best' date to arrange a (new) party...
Anyways...have written a lot here already! Guess my point should be clear by now:
My wish for the scene would be...that we as sceners simply KNOW who we are and that WE would try to lead OUR scene into OUR directions we would like it to have! (but this direction surely shouldn't be like: having just ONE scene-party left worth visiting (like MS) in a few years though! ;-D)
WE started all this many years back! So WE should try to keep it rolling...and not letting several (once being cool) events die..just because 'some gamers' came on the screen!
Simply use the 'positive' things they could provide (like paying additional entrance for 'us'! ;-) ) and put them in an extra hall where they can't annoy 'us' then... ;-) That way WE would be satisfied...and THEY surely won't care either! ;-D
Easy as that? So support MS and also show your support to TG to show them that YOU ARE 'scene' and still interested!! :-)
Crest: well, why are you kinda 'intolerant' concerning '(scene-)events' ...?
Well, I think it really doesn't matter if a party (no matter if it used to be 'pure' scene or not...also think about that: EVERY party used to be pure scene in the early days...as the SCENERS started organizing such events! So it ALL used to be SCENE some day back!!) has g(l)amers there these days or not!
Of course I'd also prefer to have no gamers around...no question about that!
But simply face the facts...gamers raised in a huge community since several years now...it's surely something completely different compared to 'the scene'...but why being totally ignorant and almost _hating_ them till death!?
I mean..as long as those guys aren't MIXED in one hall with sceners but having their own hall/place/area at the party I don't really care..as I don't have to go over to them...
As long as I'm not annoyed by them...like having to see _their_ 'ignorant' behaviour sometimes not interested in demos and scene-compos on the big screen...I don't care!
Let them play whatever they like...let them not look left nor right in three days but just having headphones on and staring on their CS screen!! Who cares? If they don't sit among US (=sceners!) let them pay and finance 'our' party...if they want to!
Of course the shouldn't be able to take over the event! But that's surely more a decision of the party-orgas than of the gamers themselves!
I just can repeat here what I already said before as well:
We are ALL just humans and surely do mistakes!
Maybe TG orga made certain mistakes in the last years by giving the gamers 'more' attention than the sceners there!
BUT, as digitalerrOr said up here, they are TRYING to change that again...so why not giving them a chance again then?
A good scene-party always consists of TWO parts: the orga AND the sceners going there/supporting it!
The only 'problem' I'd see for the moment would be that MS and TG are placed at the same date..and that makes it a bit harder to decide for many sceners for sure!
But it's also clear that TG surely was the 'first' at this date and no one could have known that MS would develope to such a big scene-event over the years!
Well, good party-dates are rare if you take the whole year in consideration...so it's hard to 'not' collide with any other event on a certain date if you are looking for the 'best' date to arrange a (new) party...
Anyways...have written a lot here already! Guess my point should be clear by now:
My wish for the scene would be...that we as sceners simply KNOW who we are and that WE would try to lead OUR scene into OUR directions we would like it to have! (but this direction surely shouldn't be like: having just ONE scene-party left worth visiting (like MS) in a few years though! ;-D)
WE started all this many years back! So WE should try to keep it rolling...and not letting several (once being cool) events die..just because 'some gamers' came on the screen!
Simply use the 'positive' things they could provide (like paying additional entrance for 'us'! ;-) ) and put them in an extra hall where they can't annoy 'us' then... ;-) That way WE would be satisfied...and THEY surely won't care either! ;-D
Easy as that? So support MS and also show your support to TG to show them that YOU ARE 'scene' and still interested!! :-)
Damn! Sorry for that last MEGA-posting here! ;-)
But you see I'm very interested to lead YOU (all) into the right directions again as well... ;-)))
But you see I'm very interested to lead YOU (all) into the right directions again as well... ;-)))
Bah. First of all, I'm quite positive neither TG nor Mekka will "move over" to make room for the other (remember, most people have TIME to attend parties during easter).
Second, yes, the last few years the scene spirit on TG has been quite dead, so I fully understand people going to M&S instead. But it finally appears like something is happening -- last year, there was actually a good atmosphere in front of the big screen (although the good releases were lacking -- it appears to me that this will change this year, given what people are coding on now ;-) ), and in general there was at least a _tiny_ bit more "scene atmosphere" than on, say, TG00. Okay, yes, people are gathering in front of a big screen and some atmosphere mumbo jumbo -- no, it doesn't mean TG is a sceneparty, but at least the potential is there ;-)
Third, prizes. No, prizes can't make a good party by themselves, and the prizes aren't official and out yet, but I think I can promise you that the scene prizes WILL be a lot cooler than the game prizes. ;-)
OBTW, I'm partly in the TG democrew, so you can take what I say as shameless promotion if you want to ;-)
/* Sesse */
Second, yes, the last few years the scene spirit on TG has been quite dead, so I fully understand people going to M&S instead. But it finally appears like something is happening -- last year, there was actually a good atmosphere in front of the big screen (although the good releases were lacking -- it appears to me that this will change this year, given what people are coding on now ;-) ), and in general there was at least a _tiny_ bit more "scene atmosphere" than on, say, TG00. Okay, yes, people are gathering in front of a big screen and some atmosphere mumbo jumbo -- no, it doesn't mean TG is a sceneparty, but at least the potential is there ;-)
Third, prizes. No, prizes can't make a good party by themselves, and the prizes aren't official and out yet, but I think I can promise you that the scene prizes WILL be a lot cooler than the game prizes. ;-)
OBTW, I'm partly in the TG democrew, so you can take what I say as shameless promotion if you want to ;-)
/* Sesse */
TG turned into a commercial LAN-party years ago, this will not change. *Anyone* who saw the compos (not just the entries, but the lack of people paying attention to them) last year will second that.
However, if warez, games and teen babes is what gets your juices flowing, please do attent. But don't claim you're there because of "the scene".
This years desperate "scene-ticket" stunt is a nice try, but it's waaay to late. Sceners and lamers just don't mix that well.
Let TG be the LAN-party it is, and attend MS for the Scene experience.
However, if warez, games and teen babes is what gets your juices flowing, please do attent. But don't claim you're there because of "the scene".
This years desperate "scene-ticket" stunt is a nice try, but it's waaay to late. Sceners and lamers just don't mix that well.
Let TG be the LAN-party it is, and attend MS for the Scene experience.
Mikeri: eh, you're a lamer for sure. :)
A lot of gamers are getting tired of gaming.
These people are potential sceners.
A party like TG has a great opportunity to make the gamers notice the scene, and perhaps even make them join.
I attend tiny LANparties from time to time, and gamers notice that I am programming. (Sorry, I don't do demos yet, but some day I probably will. I just need to learn more first.)
They comment on how difficult it looks and about how they would never manage to do that.
They themselves sometimes start mIRC-scripting og playing with Flash, because they have played CS for hours and are tired of it.
When they manage that, they can learn how to make great demos as well.
This is where the opportunity is. After some time gaming some of the gamers get tired. When they get tired of gaming, they are ready for something else.
If somebody appeared then, and showed them that it's really not that hard, a lot of them would try.
A party like TG is a unique opportunity to make the scene grow. On M&S everyone are already sceners, so there are nobody to "enroll".
If you can't beat them, make them join you!
These people are potential sceners.
A party like TG has a great opportunity to make the gamers notice the scene, and perhaps even make them join.
I attend tiny LANparties from time to time, and gamers notice that I am programming. (Sorry, I don't do demos yet, but some day I probably will. I just need to learn more first.)
They comment on how difficult it looks and about how they would never manage to do that.
They themselves sometimes start mIRC-scripting og playing with Flash, because they have played CS for hours and are tired of it.
When they manage that, they can learn how to make great demos as well.
This is where the opportunity is. After some time gaming some of the gamers get tired. When they get tired of gaming, they are ready for something else.
If somebody appeared then, and showed them that it's really not that hard, a lot of them would try.
A party like TG is a unique opportunity to make the scene grow. On M&S everyone are already sceners, so there are nobody to "enroll".
If you can't beat them, make them join you!
activator: Why, because I don't like LAN-parties?
Seriously; I'm not trying to "dis" TG or anything. Everybody knows that the Gathering is a huge success and a very popular event. But it is no longer a scene-party. Adding a so-called "scene-departement" surely underlines this? If I owned a restaurant, I wouldn't advertise with having an own "eating room". (A silly example, I know. But I think it makes a point nevertheless.)
What's the big deal with getting sceners to TG anyway? If scene-parties is what you want, then attend one, for gods sake.
Personally I will stay home this easter. Yes, I am very lame.
Seriously; I'm not trying to "dis" TG or anything. Everybody knows that the Gathering is a huge success and a very popular event. But it is no longer a scene-party. Adding a so-called "scene-departement" surely underlines this? If I owned a restaurant, I wouldn't advertise with having an own "eating room". (A silly example, I know. But I think it makes a point nevertheless.)
What's the big deal with getting sceners to TG anyway? If scene-parties is what you want, then attend one, for gods sake.
Personally I will stay home this easter. Yes, I am very lame.
It's quite lame to say that TG cannot change, coz' it can! And I know that TG will have many cool releases. Some of you guys act like CS-Gamers.."aww, I lost becouse the server was laggy". Even if TG is not a scene-party, there may be some cool results!(god damn..i need to sleep..)
knuta: disagree. gamers are no potential sceners, at least the part that might be potential is < 0.0001%
I never realized that the hardcore CS/Q3/UT are tired of gaming, no way. and I also do not know any former CS elite dude which now is a die-hard demoscener. and please, just because someone is playing around with flash (*hrm*) he has the potential to be a scener ? no way.
and I disagree also that making demos is "not that hard" and we should tell them about that. no way. real democoding is still a very complex task which needs years of work and can not be done in 2 weeks by some CS lamer. actually many gamers think, making games/demos/whatever is not that hard. and those are the dudes that waste precious student-places at universities and brake computer science studies after 1 year because it's not that easy as plaing CS.
no gamers at sceneparties and that's that. years ago we didn't need more-or-less lan events to get new sceners, so why should we now ? I entered the scene without knowing what a demoparty is and with hardly knowing any demo. it was only the fascination. and not CS.
--styx
I never realized that the hardcore CS/Q3/UT are tired of gaming, no way. and I also do not know any former CS elite dude which now is a die-hard demoscener. and please, just because someone is playing around with flash (*hrm*) he has the potential to be a scener ? no way.
and I disagree also that making demos is "not that hard" and we should tell them about that. no way. real democoding is still a very complex task which needs years of work and can not be done in 2 weeks by some CS lamer. actually many gamers think, making games/demos/whatever is not that hard. and those are the dudes that waste precious student-places at universities and brake computer science studies after 1 year because it's not that easy as plaing CS.
no gamers at sceneparties and that's that. years ago we didn't need more-or-less lan events to get new sceners, so why should we now ? I entered the scene without knowing what a demoparty is and with hardly knowing any demo. it was only the fascination. and not CS.
--styx
hahaha styx... it's rather the sceners who often get broken in their first year and waste computer science spaces :)
As the chief for the TG democrew I feel I must say something.
It is unfortunate that M&S and TG is arranged at the same time. It is unfortunate since the demosceners are the only ones who can turn things around. Sure, there were no notably good releases last year, but the -feeling- was starting to come back.. and after a year with recruiting and chatting with fresh sceners on IRC and in real life, I must say that things are looking a lot better for this years TG. I only wish that people would stop saying things like "It's either M&S or TG", because both parties have their place in the scene as it is now. I'd love to go to M&S myself. Many of my scene-friends are regulars there already, but I've kinda "dedicated" lots and lots of my spare time to try to turn TG around again and make it a cool place for sceners, once again.
Just my $0.02
It is unfortunate that M&S and TG is arranged at the same time. It is unfortunate since the demosceners are the only ones who can turn things around. Sure, there were no notably good releases last year, but the -feeling- was starting to come back.. and after a year with recruiting and chatting with fresh sceners on IRC and in real life, I must say that things are looking a lot better for this years TG. I only wish that people would stop saying things like "It's either M&S or TG", because both parties have their place in the scene as it is now. I'd love to go to M&S myself. Many of my scene-friends are regulars there already, but I've kinda "dedicated" lots and lots of my spare time to try to turn TG around again and make it a cool place for sceners, once again.
Just my $0.02
Gloom: Yep, THAT's the way to go!! Cool, man! Will cross my fingers for you and TG that you'll be able to convince more (real) sceners again to support it all...
Only THAT way the scene will stay fresh as well! So keep up running _various_ scene events...not just 'one' in the future... How stupid could that be then!?
Only THAT way the scene will stay fresh as well! So keep up running _various_ scene events...not just 'one' in the future... How stupid could that be then!?
I'm attending tg, try to stop me!
Just 100% ack for styx.
To gloom: TP organizers tried the same in 2000 (quite successful), but forgot it completly just one year later. So don't do the same error ...
To gloom: TP organizers tried the same in 2000 (quite successful), but forgot it completly just one year later. So don't do the same error ...
Crest: True! TP had a really good event in 2000 and entered the right way again...
BUT: They didn't 'forget' about it this year...but 'fired' some of the main-orgas (part of the last 'real' sceners of the orga-team!) for 2001 as of certain 'disagreements' they didn't want to accept from them...
THAT's why TP 2001 sucked BAAADLY and ruined almost ALL they kinda were building up duringe the last 2-3 years scenewise again! :-(
TP seems to be really dead by now...as THE 'top'-ORGA decided to concentrate even more on gamers only...and to skip various scene-things cause of that! (like doing 'combined intro' compos with 64k, 4k of pc and amiga in ONE compo! What a mega-stuuupid idea!!! pah!! or the smae with DEMOS (combining amiga and pc demos in ONE compo!! how FAIR is that, please!?! :-(( )
They really LACKED scene spirit this last year...and that made them DIE finally I guess!
And also THAT's why there might be a new event maybe for this year at this date...which will be launched to pay the right respect to sceners (only) again...
Let's see what will happen soon...more news on that to be released during this year...! ;-)
BUT: They didn't 'forget' about it this year...but 'fired' some of the main-orgas (part of the last 'real' sceners of the orga-team!) for 2001 as of certain 'disagreements' they didn't want to accept from them...
THAT's why TP 2001 sucked BAAADLY and ruined almost ALL they kinda were building up duringe the last 2-3 years scenewise again! :-(
TP seems to be really dead by now...as THE 'top'-ORGA decided to concentrate even more on gamers only...and to skip various scene-things cause of that! (like doing 'combined intro' compos with 64k, 4k of pc and amiga in ONE compo! What a mega-stuuupid idea!!! pah!! or the smae with DEMOS (combining amiga and pc demos in ONE compo!! how FAIR is that, please!?! :-(( )
They really LACKED scene spirit this last year...and that made them DIE finally I guess!
And also THAT's why there might be a new event maybe for this year at this date...which will be launched to pay the right respect to sceners (only) again...
Let's see what will happen soon...more news on that to be released during this year...! ;-)
Weasel: Surprising clear words against TP, 100% ack!
You are also right with this combining of amiga and pc compos thingy and actually the ASM orgas do the same shit. But it seems to be accepted by ASM attenders...
You are also right with this combining of amiga and pc compos thingy and actually the ASM orgas do the same shit. But it seems to be accepted by ASM attenders...
Crest: Why is it surprising to you? ;-) I'm always judging things as 'objective' as I can...and the last years of TP showed some really positive developements and I wanted to try to do my part to get as many sceners to the event as possible! So I started the 'The Bus' project and organized that for more than 6 times sucessfully then...
But this last year TP really showed that they seem not to care anymore about 'sceners'...and their supporters! (No one please say now: "I always knew that...that's why I never went there! Blabla!!" As THIS is/was wrong as well!!)
Anyways this last year's 'breakdown' was just because of that 'fireing' of some main-(scene) orgas...that really sucked! and also other (scene) orgas I met still at TP said that TP lost big this year!! So they think as well if it's useful to join orga-team next year again...and most of 'em denied it already that they will...that's why there was the idea of starting something 'new' instead maybe then...
Let's see...
I know about assembly and their combining as well! I really disliked that developement and already were afraid to see such stupid things at other parties then as well...and when I read the same at TP then...I knew that this could be the beginning of the real end finally...! :-( And it seems that I was true...! :-(
Anyways...no reason to be sad no...simply let's support (or start) new things/events the way WE wanna have them...to preserve THE SCENE....OUR SCENE! ;-)
(...oh my god...what 'fluffy' words are this now!? ;-DDD like 'happy ends' in hollywood movies, eh!? ;-DDD )
But this last year TP really showed that they seem not to care anymore about 'sceners'...and their supporters! (No one please say now: "I always knew that...that's why I never went there! Blabla!!" As THIS is/was wrong as well!!)
Anyways this last year's 'breakdown' was just because of that 'fireing' of some main-(scene) orgas...that really sucked! and also other (scene) orgas I met still at TP said that TP lost big this year!! So they think as well if it's useful to join orga-team next year again...and most of 'em denied it already that they will...that's why there was the idea of starting something 'new' instead maybe then...
Let's see...
I know about assembly and their combining as well! I really disliked that developement and already were afraid to see such stupid things at other parties then as well...and when I read the same at TP then...I knew that this could be the beginning of the real end finally...! :-( And it seems that I was true...! :-(
Anyways...no reason to be sad no...simply let's support (or start) new things/events the way WE wanna have them...to preserve THE SCENE....OUR SCENE! ;-)
(...oh my god...what 'fluffy' words are this now!? ;-DDD like 'happy ends' in hollywood movies, eh!? ;-DDD )
Weasel: 100% ack!
Let's preserve the scene and start more parties for real sceners. Of course not only in Germany, there are already several quite nice parties here ;-)
Let's preserve the scene and start more parties for real sceners. Of course not only in Germany, there are already several quite nice parties here ;-)
I'm going to mekka this year and really looking forward to it. As when it comes to which of the big parties that are good scene parties, I've been to tp, tg, asm and dh. Asm is the best big party scene-wise, and 2nd is dh (nowadays, since they've started to really care about the sceners and are going in an assembly-like direction). For me it's important that it's really nice guys in the crew (like abyss EVER is an annoying chap, he rocks ffs!, and the compo-crew at dh I love). So, big parties HAS to put effort into making the sceners like them, not blaming the sceners etc. Once they've lost them (like TG did a few years ago, when all of the sudden there was like three PC-demos released) they have to give the sceners quite a nice deal to make them go there. And saying that TG not has to move, but mekka should move it's date is pure B.S., since the sceners PREFER mekka over tg. If TG would be like, during the summer or something. Atleast 1.5-2.0 months after mekka, then they'd get a lot more sceners. Or are they conflicting with some other party then?
So, Weasel, the TP-scene-orga-team will start a real scene party?
