pouët.net

agree.
was barely watchable after speeding up the playback speed. constantly setting certain things as "it is going to happen !! trust me on dis !!" and speculating further without proving or reconsidering if the axioms are actually useful or possible.
just believing in "it is possible to generate/create a general purpose artificial intelligence" isn't goin to give us one oO.
another question, he doesn't even consider:
suppose it is possible, do we even have enough energy to create one with our current tools? the very small edge-cases where "AI" barely works are already eating up so much energy. ..now going from this state to "ye, in amount time x we surely gonna hav a general purpose one !!" is simply ridiculous... "months"? - made me laugh.
outside of some nice quotes presented with a rly bad "AI"... i don't think the vid has any value, lol. and, welp, all the value i see in it are from other ppl, not the creator of the vid... :D

Photon, I saw it before: demosceners hate NFT ('cause hackers ethic, underground, no commerce, etc.) and protest against Demo- and NFT- scenes intersection. Admins even closed NFT-related thread on the Pouet BBS.
And what we've got as a result? NFT marketplaces adopted creative coders anyway, a lot of generative art (including realtime, including size-limited, including ShaderToy) are represented in blockchain. But these coders has no support from demoscene community. While less talented artists make sells just because they support each other with retweets, comments and recommendations.
Everyone I know say "wow, it's great for NFT, it's a treasure chest!" when they see demos and even tiny intros. Demoscene can play significant role in NFT world, but... we don't want to give ordinary people our art, because they may want to pay for it, right?
The same for A.I.: if we get rid of it, we just will loose grateful audience. We will loose some creative sceners as well, since they are interested in A.I.

Oh, how nice that you mention NFTs here. One more thing that makes any sane person wanna puke. One more thing demoscene should pass on with disgust. Look man, if you wanna make a buck, why don’t you try and do that somewhere else, and just exist here completely noncommercially. Dunno about other people but I sure as f*ck don’t need glass beads and whiskey.

Ummm... what?

You should probably never talk to those people again.

...What Gargaj said,

2 things are not for sale, our asses and our art !

Gargaj, I'm deep in artistic community now, and I wonder why demoscene coders underestimate painters who exhibited in the real galleries. It was their reaction on the demoscene – naive a bit, but honest. They are impressed. Why do you think they understand nothing in visual art? If so, why people come to see their paintings?

4gentE, what about Siggraph then? Don't you think it's not about commerce, but the way to spread good art and attract more people?

@Manwe : Siggraph is first and foremost an industry trade show. So it's exactly about commerce. It's not about what I think of it, it's what it is.

What has appreciating or understanding art to do with grifters selling imaginary proofs of imaginary ownership?

4gentE but demosceners took a part in Siggraph. I can't recall someone blamed them for that. For that commercial activity.

Anyway, back to A.I.
Nowadays people call AI-made pictures as "generative art". Should we rename our demos to "procedural art" or "hand-coded art" to separate from AI?

Or should we port AI to home computers, like the past generation of demosceners ported "Hollywood graphics" back then?
Remember this? It was "impossible", but they did it.


So, what about realtime AI-generated art in demos?
Remember "Spin" by ASD? In 2011 it has the realtime interframe transitions, very similiar to 2023 AI animations.
Yes, I know, it was not AI, but who cares? Demoscene is about to fake everything. If you can make an animation that looks like AI-generated on an ordinary home computer in realtime, for free – you are the hero of the day. People will love you as they loved Future Crew and Farbrausch.

perhaps we should also rename ourselves from "demoscener" to "prompt engineer" in your scenario :D

So you recommend taking financial advice from painters? Ignoring their habit to die penniless and then see their work being exploited commercially by others for all eternity? Yeah better try to switch the conversation back to AI mr. Manwe :P

Oh lol Manwe, just make this AI demo and release on your own. But you are somehow correct that as demoscene is shaped by party orgas and you will most likely receive zero support in the current demoscene mindset. Do you care though? That wouldn't stop me at least from doing what the f* I want not what they tell me to do.

The demoscene is shaped by people who do things.

Not by people telling others what they should do and not by people asking others what they should do.

FYI the "generative" word comes from the "generative modeling" array of statistical techniques where you don't condition on the observation but learn a joint probability distribution of both observations and targets. So you can use the model to sample new data points instead of just classifying them.

In other words, it has nothing to do with "computer generated" images.

Manwe : Demosceners should participate in NFT fad and make some money!
4gentE : Errr no we shouldn't. I think demoscene should stay completely non-commercial.
Manwe : But what about Siggraph? That's not commercial.
4gentE : Actually Siggraph is a trade show, so it's very much commercial.
Manwe : But demosceners took part in Siggraph. I can't recall someone blame them for it.

Then goes to point out that demoscene's appearance at Siggraph was NOT commercial activity which it (technically) indeed wasn't. Wait Manwe, but wasn't your first idea that demosceners SHOULD participate in commercial activity?

4gentE : Sorry, I'm unable to follow you. Do go back to AI.

If you think Siggraph is a trade show, you've never been to Siggraph. The exhibits are an almost irrelevant part of what Siggraph is. This is kinda obvious if you look at the entrance prices; an exhibits only pass cost around 3% of the full conference pass.

@kusma : Yeah, sure, bro.

And Yu Gi Oh is a cartoon and not a marketing plot.

In theory. In practice, your entry can be always disqualified.

I know it's usually very friendly and open environment and it never happend to me. But... the shear fact you are competing, you have to agree on some rules and it's party orgas having final say.

Don't get me wrong, they are usually the nicest guy out there. Probably nicer than 90% flamers on pouet :P But you have to still kind of ask them politely if they agree to qualify your entry to the competition. And it does affect what you can or cannot work on. For example, you cannot do 256k intro with R-rated graphic content just because you feel like it. I mean, you of course can, but it won't be in the compo.

with that in mind - any sceners going to siggraph? hmu, we can go do some commercial activity.

4gentE, you are missing what I'm saying again and again. I'll try again: for demosceners NFT participation is NOT about making money, but about spreading art at galleries. I said it clearly twice. I hope this simple idea will reach your mind at 3rd attempt? Look, it's not me who thinking about money, but you.

smash, I wonder why people here think going to NFT is about commercial activity. This conversation is a total mess.

tomkh, I tried to use a neural network already to make antialiasing in my 4k intro, but had no time to finish it before deadline, so I ended up with traditional upscale instead.

In any case, someone will incorporate A.I. in his demo someday, and then it becomes the common thing. I remember how demosceners protested against pre-rendered animation, mp3 music, 3rd-party assets, Windows, 3D cards, Amiga accelerators, filmed video, fantasy consoles, 3rd-party 3D engines, etc. The same for A.I. now. If you're afraid of new technology, you won't be the first and the best.

@Manwe : OK, I get it now man. And it's just my third attempt. ;-) Your basic idea was in fact (if I finally managed to understand it right) that NFT fad should be used as a means to broaden the audience for demoscene artefacts.

The fact that I find the very idea of NFTs repulsive, dumb and damaging, plus the fact that I think NFTs were NOT at all conceived as a means for authors to get paid, but rather as another dumbass late capitalism's casino-like playground, give my "reach for my gun" instinct a boost. Therefore I totally missed what you were (I guess) trying to say.

You mentioning "less talented artists make sells" and "goldmine" didn't help either.

My standpoint would be best described by quoting @Preacher :

That.

Anyway, we're offtopic.



The fact that the demoscene is somewhat isolated (by its own choice I guess), which seems to bother you, the tendency of the demoscene to shy away from everything remotly "commercial", to refuse "glass beads and whiskey", is the very reason why it does not have to be involved in any kind of rat race imposed from above, doesn't have to use any tech that gets shoved down the humanity's collective throat.

Manwe, here are three quotes from a single one of your posts to explain why people think you're "in it for the money" just like everyone else who is into NFT :